How embracing imperfection led to a booked-out doula business
Interview with Ashley Wilson
I chat with Newborn Mothers graduate Ashley Wilson from Phlox Postpartum. Together we discuss Ashley's background in yoga and Ayurveda, how she started a postpartum care service, and the unique challenges of working with families. At the core of this conversation, we explore how to help people feel empowered in the work of mothering.
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About Ashley
Ashley is a Mama of two, passionately supporting Mothers in their transition to motherhood or motherhood again. She works to ensure mothers feel supported, respected, and rested during their postpartum experience. She believes that holding space for stories and experiences to be shared honours the season of life we are in. Honouring each transition to Motherhood and allowing space to rest, recover and bond with your new baby are all so important. Her work provides practical help around the home, as well as emotional and mental support as Mothers traverse the portal of Matrescence.
Reach out to Ashley here: https://www.instagram.com/phlox.postpartum
We explore the following questions:
How did your background in Ayurveda and yoga influence your transition into postpartum care?
What inspired you to become a postpartum doula, and how did your personal journey shape this decision?
How can postpartum doulas use their unique skills and experiences to support families effectively?
Why is flexibility such an important aspect of being a postpartum doula, especially for mothers with young children?
How can doulas help mothers focus on emotional and practical needs rather than external expectations during the postpartum period?
Why is it important for postpartum doulas to adapt their care to each family’s unique needs?
How can doulas encourage mothers to prioritize support and connection over material items like prams or baby clothes?
What advice would you give to new doulas who are nervous about starting their practice or charging for their services?
How can doulas avoid burnout and maintain sustainable boundaries while supporting mothers?
Why is building a supportive network of doulas crucial for providing comprehensive postpartum care?
How does helping mothers “zoom out” and focus on long-term goals enhance their parenting journey?
What does the future of postpartum care look like, and how can doulas make their services more accessible?
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Transcript
Julia Jones:
Hello and welcome to the Newborn Mothers podcast. I'm here today with one of my graduates, Ashley Wilson, who is based in Sydney and has a background in Ayuveda and yoga before finding her calling in postpartum care. Ashley, how are you? Thank you for coming on the show.
Ashley Wilson:
Hello. So good to be here. Thank you for including me.
Julia Jones:
Oh, my pleasure. I've been watching you and your career flourish for the past few years, and I haven't been recording podcasts in ages, but as soon as we booked in a batch of guests, you were at the top of my list. I remember you studied with us in 2021, but you already had a little bit of background in Ayurveda and yoga before that. So can you tell us how you became interested in postpartum care?
Ashley Wilson:
Yeah, of course. So I studied to be a yoga teacher about a decade ago, and while I enjoyed it, it never really spoke to me the way I thought it would. And then I was living in America and I studied pre and postnatal teacher training, and that's when I really started to think, oh my gosh, this working with women like pregnant women and little babies is really just so special. It's like that magic that you can't describe being in a room with all these women in such a feminine capacity. And the teacher that I learned with was a doula and a midwife, and I wasn't really familiar with what a doula was and what she offered or what doulas did. And she was really open in sharing how she supported women and her beliefs and yeah, just all her practises. It was really incredible and I was super inspired and we moved back to Australia and I didn't have children yet, and I wasn't confident to start practising without having had my own children.
Ashley Wilson:
So I went back to a corporate job and in the meantime I studied a certificate in Ayurvedic healing and just loved learning particularly about the food and the principles of Ayurveda and how they can support you to have a full energised, beautiful life. And then after my second baby, when my husband and I were deciding or looking forward to the future and how it was going to work with two babies in daycare if I was back at a corporate job and he travels a lot and we just thought, this is going to be hard, and it was actually him who suggested that I come and study with you. And he was like, why don't you do the postpartum doula course and set up your business and see how it goes? And one of the primary drivers for us was the flexibility that it would offer in our lives.
Ashley Wilson:
And then also I was able to combine my yoga teaching experience, my passion for women in this pregnant and postpartum phase, and then the Ayurvedic study that I'd done and loved. So really when I was doing your course, I feel like it was all this information that I essentially knew and you brought it all together in such a cohesive way that was like, oh, this is how you bring it to life for someone. So it was a really beautiful experience doing your course and kind of being like, oh, all these things that I know are now distilled into this kind of one view that it's just going to make care so beautiful for other families.
Julia Jones:
I love that. How great that your husband was so supportive. I wish that wasn't rare.
Ashley Wilson:
I know know, he really was the one who was like, you know what? I think it's time for you to do this.
Julia Jones:
And did you have doubts? Were you like, oh, no one's going to pay me for this, I won't be very good at it. Did you have any
Ashley Wilson:
Oh yeah.
Julia Jones:
You did?
Ashley Wilson:
Yeah, I did. I did. I was kind of working through your modules on pricing and putting together packages that I was kind like, what am I offering that's different? What's my unique proposition? Why would somebody hire me? This feels like a lot of money. And then you'd break it down to an hourly rate. And I was like, well, that kind of doesn't make sense either. How you talk about it as being sold and packages makes the most sense. But it seemed like a lot to be asking. And then I had a couple of friends who'd recently had babies and they had had postpartum doula support from another one of your graduates, and they were raving about just how helpful it was. And so I got in contact with her and she was really amazing and mentored me the next step of the way in getting involved in the community and taking on clients.
And I think I booked my first client not long after I graduated, so maybe two months later. And she was really great. She actually, she paid a bit less than what I would normally have charged, less than what I was thinking to charge, but of course I was like, yes, I would basically do it for free. I just want to get the experience. And after that experience, I really felt like, okay, I didn't feel awkward in this space. I really felt like I knew what I was doing and I had a lot of positive feedback from this client, and it really boosted my confidence. And then alongside this other woman who had so graciously taken me on as a mentee, I feel like I became really confident to put myself out there, so to speak, and start appetising. And since then, I've pretty much had a constant flow of clients ever since and have been fully booked a lot of the time, which has been, it's felt really abundant and really beautiful and really supportive to be in that space. So I'm very grateful that that has been my experience.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love that you've really clearly demonstrated, one of the things I tell people all the time, which is don't wait until you're ready. Because what happens is if we wait until we are ready, we are never ready and we're never take action, but instead you take the action and that builds your confidence to take—
Ashley Wilson:
God, Julia, still to this day from your course, I have in my mind, Julia Jones says, don't make it perfect, just get it out there. So I'm always like, it doesn't need to be perfect. Just do it.
Julia Jones:
Just do it because you support someone, you learn something, you gain a little bit of confidence, you tweak your services and you support someone else. But if we waited until everything was perfect, if we waited until we were confident, if we waited until we were ready, we'd never do anything.
Ashley Wilson:
Oh, we'd never. And one of the things I've learned along the way is it's amazing to have kind of what you offer outlined so that people can understand, but the reality is each client is so different that you adapt the visit to meet the need of the time. And so I often find that people will book me because they think they want someone to hold their baby, or they think they want someone to give them space to sleep or to fold their washing and do the practical things. And then what they actually get the most benefit from is the emotional connection and the emotional support and someone there in their corner supporting them. I think that's not really something that you can sell, so to speak.
Julia Jones:
Exactly. That's another thing that you probably have me saying in your ear all the time, but it's sell them what they want and give them what they need.
Ashley Wilson:
It's exactly right. It's exactly right
Julia Jones:
Because we don't know, when we're pregnant. We don't actually know what we're going to need.
Ashley Wilson:
That's right. I often, I like to reassure people in those consultation calls that it's okay if you don't know what you need. In fact, that's pretty normal. It's your job to know that you'll probably need support. And so you hire someone like me, it's my job to identify what need of the time is. It's my job to be able to go in there and see, okay, I can see that you're bone tired, or I can see that you've got a lot to get off your chest. Let's set you up with a foot soak so that you can slowly start chatting and get everything off. Or I can see that you've got a house full of little kids and you actually need me to take the older ones outside today to give you a break. So it's very nuanced what happens in each visit, but you're exactly right. You sell them what they think they need and then you give them what they actually do need.
Julia Jones:
And you can never know that day-to-day, I mean, someone's support needs in that newborn stage changed so rapidly. So even if —
Ashley Wilson:
Oh, so rapidly!
Julia Jones:
A week ago they might've said, next visit, can we do this? But then by the time you get there, they're like, oh no. It's been a whole lifetime since then and everything's changed.
Ashley Wilson:
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think one of the really beautiful parts for me is when we get to that last visit, and sometimes it's the last few, but when mom's like, okay, well I would really like to go out today and leave you at home with the baby. I'm like, she's done. She's nailed it. She's ready to consciously uncouple with me and move into the next zone of her experience because she's had that brilliant support and her needs have changed so drastically.
Julia Jones:
Yes. And that's ultimately what we always want as doulas is to have that short-term support so that the long-term mom's got a bigger village and more confidence and is ready to move forward with her life.
Ashley Wilson:
And that's it. I think that's the most beautiful part. And some clients that happens quite quickly, they sort of move through the experience and are ready. And other clients, it takes a really long time. Some clients I'm with for months and months and months, and that is the journey that they're going on. And everyone's experience is so different, but I think it's really normal for people to take a really long time to be ready for the next step. And then it's also normal for some moms to have kind of six sessions and be like, oh my gosh, I'm totally ready to be out there with my baby.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love it. So you've been fairly busy and booked out for a few years now.
Ashley Wilson:
Yeah.
Julia Jones:
This provided you with the flexibility that you were looking for, that was originally the reason, one of the reasons you decided it was time to start.
Ashley Wilson:
That's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. So for context, my husband works in a job where he's often overseas, and so a lot of the at home admin and parenting is solo parenting. And so really important for me to be able to pick my children up for school. And also really important to me that they spend more time at home with me. They do in daycare, and I know all families have different priorities, and that was just one of our priorities was to have them at home as much as we can whilst also fulfilling our own needs. And so doing valuable work where I felt that I'm giving back to the community is really important to me. So I really want to be working. And it was actually my husband's idea that I set up the business when the girls were little, and it has just been the most nourishing experience to be able to work with mothers whilst also being a mother, because I've been able to shuffle things around to be there for my kids, go to the assembly, or if they're having a particularly challenging time, be able to be there to pick them up after school.
And they do go to aftercare and dance and things after school on the days that I work. But on days when they're having a really challenging time, mothers who are in my care have been so wonderfully flexible if I need to shuffle a visit around, it's just been so well received every time. And I think that's one of the beauties of this work is you are a mother working with mothers, and we all understand that children have needs and sometimes we have to change our schedules to be able to meet their need. And I think that's just been one of the really beautiful experiences, being a doula, is having that flexibility.
Julia Jones:
I love that. I know Annabel Crabb writes in her book, I think it's called The Wife Drought, but she writes that we're expected, I don't know if she originally said this, if she got it from somewhere else, but she said that we're expected to work like we don't have children, and then mother like we don't have a job. But the thing about when mothers work with mothers is we can be whole people.
Ashley Wilson:
Yes. That's exactly it. And I think as well, being my children aren't that, they're still little, they're six and four. But the other thing that I talk to my clients a lot about is the kind of evolution out of newborn into babyhood, into toddlerhood, into preschool. And I think those conversations are really valuable, and I know that a lot of clients, not that the way that I do it is the way that they'll do it, absolutely not. But it's like having people at different stages to you to share what kind of things to expect from the future. And it's also, I talk to my clients a lot about this concept of zooming out because we get so caught up in what the moment is calling from us with babies in particular, that we don't get a chance to zoom out and think about, oh, well what kind of parent do I want to be?
What kind of way do I want to respond when this particular baby is four? How would I want my nervous system to be regulated for them and how can I embody that right from the start? And so we are looking at it from this zoomed out perspective of trying to meet our own needs as mothers so that we can also meet our children's needs. I don’t know if I'm explaining that well, but it's trying to encourage mothers not to get so lost in the sleep schedules or the feeding programmes or all these things that we can get caught up in and new motherhood and really zoom out and be like, what about if we're looking after mom and mom's nervous system, and then we can meet our baby's needs from moment to moment without getting so wrapped up and being the perfect mother.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. I love that. I think what I'm hearing you say is we're trying to get moms to step out of that crisis firefighting mode and think about what can I put in place? Who can I be, what do I need for me to be able to do this? Because it's a marathon.
Ashley Wilson:
It's a marathon.
Julia Jones:
It's decades of being a mother ahead of you.
Ashley Wilson:
Yes, yes. And I think it is. It's sharing experiences and encouraging them to try and tune out the noise that they're hearing on social media and in the books they're reading and all of that sort of stuff, and tuning into their unique baby and the clues that this baby's giving them along the way that they can pick up and their experience with this baby will evolve over time. And it's not actually, they're not responding necessarily to choices that the mom's making in that moment. Their temperament is what it is, and it's our job to start watching curiously and picking up the clues and then responding to what the baby needs rather than being influenced by what we think the right thing is to do based on what we've heard online.
Julia Jones:
Yes, yes. I love it. It's really a beautiful gift to give a mother in those early weeks because it's something that's going to be with her for a lifetime.
Ashley Wilson:
I hope so, I do. I really hope that having someone support you to tune into what you think is the next right thing to do and to tune into the clues that your baby's giving you, I really hope that that supports moms to feel empowered in the job that they're doing and not look externally to books and other sources to tell them how their baby should be sleeping or feeding or growing or developing because their baby is unique and only they know the clues that the baby's giving.
Julia Jones:
So I have one more question because usually, when I check in with my graduates and they've been fully booked for three years, usually what happens is they're starting to get blurry boundaries, work more hours than they want, to get a bit burnt out, and they're kind of having to learn lessons to keep that sustainability in their work. But I don't know if that's true for you. Have you had that experience or how come you haven't had that experience?
Ashley Wilson:
Well, no, I haven't really had that experience, but I think that is because I only work two days a week, so I can see four clients in two days. And that's purely because those are the days that my youngest is booked into daycare. So there's not a lot of flexibility to say, oh, sure, I'll take on more. I'll take on more. So that would be one reason why I haven't really experienced the burnout state. But I would say that when I have the opportunity, if my husband's home and not working, which he is occasionally, I probably just like everybody else, I'm like, oh gosh, I can support more people. So if someone asks, I'm like, yes, of course I can do that day. Yes, of course I can fill in that spot. Yes, yes, yes. So I think the tendency to overcommit would absolutely be there because it's the desire to support.
Julia Jones:
That it's really hard to say no to.
Ashley Wilson:
It's hard to say no when you know that someone's only asking when they really need it. So because I practically can't do it more than what I've set as the days, that would be the only reason why I haven't overcommitted and burnt out. But I think I can absolutely understand why you do if you've got more time available than I do, and somebody asks, you are sort of like, oh my gosh, yes, I can see that you need that help. I'll do it. So I can completely understand how other doulas would burn out by saying yes all the time.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, because the demand is so great, and it's just so hard when you see a mom who needs support. It's really hard to say no, but I think you manage that by having other doulas that you can refer people to. Is that right?
Ashley Wilson:
Yes, that's right. There's a beautiful network of doulas in Sydney, and we are really lucky that a lot of us, certainly all the doulas that I'm connected to, we have similar philosophies. And so I'm very confident in referring somebody else knowing that they would be in such beautiful hands and they would be so beautifully supported. And it's really nice to be able to pass the baton to each other and ensure that moms are supported. The worst thing would be for me not to be able to support someone and then just close the book on that mom. So it's always wonderful to be able to say, well, I can't, but here are three others and I've checked their availability and they are available, so would you like me to connect you with each of them? And that way we can ensure as many months as possible and looked after by us.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love it. That's so beautiful and it's such a good lesson for all of us that it doesn't have to be you as an individual, but that together we can all contribute.
Ashley Wilson:
Yeah, totally. And I think that having that mindset, I think of there's enough work to go around that we don't need to kind of separate ourselves from each other or we can all be part of a community is really beautiful.
Julia Jones:
And really there is so much demand. I mean, it's hard to kind of overestimate how many moms right now in Australia globally need more support in postpartum. Some of them haven't realised it yet, that they need it or that they can get it. They don't know who to ask. But absolutely. There's so many mothers undersupported right now.
Ashley Wilson:
There is, yeah. And I do think sometimes the cost of doula support really, people kind of worry a bit about spending that on themselves. They think it's luxurious, which I completely understand that. But I try and challenge them and say, would you consider putting aside budget for support first and then look at how much you're spending on prams and baby clothes and play gyms because that stuff is not going to leave you feeling supported in your postpartum. And you can always get secondhand or by mid range, not top of the range products. And then allow yourself the extra budget to have practical support because when you look back on this time with your baby, the space to connect with them and the space to kind of recalibrate yourself is what you're going to remember.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, that's amazing. That's great. So what does the future hold for Phlox Postpartum? What are your next dreams and next steps?
Ashley Wilson:
Oh, I've got so many dreams. My youngest daughter is still in preschool next year, so I will continue the status quo of working two days a week, but I'm also going to do some extra study because I would really like to open up the connection and emotional support piece to more moms. And I think that it might become a bit more accessible to do in a group setting. So I'm not exactly sure how that will look at the moment, but that's something I'm thinking about as how to expand the connection piece to more moms of newborn babies. And so if you're feeling like you need postpartum doula support but maybe don't have the financial resources, then there might be some kind of group option for these moms to come to connect with others, be part of a community and have the support that way. So we'll see. I love it. Thank you. Beautiful.
Julia Jones:
That's beautiful. Amazing. Have you got anything else you want to share before we wrap up?
Ashley Wilson:
I don't, but I do think just as a side note, that it feels scary when you are transitioning into something new. I was certainly nervous, but I think if you go at it with your whole heart open and just try, it's really amazing what actually can happen. And my experience has shown me that it kind of does work out if you just give it a go and a really honest shot and be vulnerable with people and the good people come to you.
Julia Jones:
Amazing. Thank you so much, Ashley. We'll leave your links up for Phlox Postpartum so people can find you. And we really appreciate you sharing.
Ashley Wilson:
Thank you so much. It's been so wonderful to be on the podcast with you.
Julia Jones:
Lovely. Thanks for chatting.
Ashley Wilson:
My pleasure. Bye.
